Colorado Adoption Law

Colorado Adoption Law

Not all adoption advice is created equal. I just wrapped up an interview where adoption attorney Tim from the state of Colorado, shared with me what he classified as a horror story. And it is every adoptive parent's worst nightmare. You get advice from an adoption attorney that your expectant parents in another state can just sign some paperwork, and your adoption would become legal when in reality that actually can put your adoption opportunity in jeopardy. 

Today, Tim is sharing that story’s outcome, and the overall adoption process in the state of Colorado. This will be a great resource for you if you're considering adopting in Colorado, or even in another state because you don't want to risk making the same mistakes. 

Amanda: Please join me in welcoming Tim to the show. Thank you so much for being willing to join us today. We appreciate your time.

Tim: Thank you for having me, Amanda.

Amanda: We are so excited to learn more about adoption in the state of Colorado. But before we dive into that, do you mind sharing just a little bit more about your background with our audience so they can get to know you better? 

Tim: Sure. Well, again, my name is Tim Eirich. I'm a partner at Grob & Eirich, LLC in Colorado, and we're a small niche family juvenile law firm that specializes in family formation. We handle adoption, work-assisted reproduction work, as well as child welfare. We also do a lot of juvenile immigration work. In terms of my background, I have three children myself who are not adopted. But growing up, my family was surrounded by adoption. My mom's best friend growing up was a family that had adopted a large group of kids. So all the kids I grew up with were family alike to me. And they were a family that was formed by adoption. So from an early age, I was kind of dramatically impacted by the positive impact of adoption as well as struggles, particularly with a large family group. So it was something from an early age I was exposed to. And then before I had my children, I used to run a group home for academically gifted abused kids and one of those boys came to live with me and my wife. And so even though I've not adopted any children, I know firsthand what it's like to raise a child that's maybe not mine, biologically, and deal with both the beautiful aspects of that, as well as the challenging aspects of that. And honestly, that's a young man that I still think of as a son, and a son-like figure to me.

Amanda: That's awesome. That is beautiful. It's interesting that I often find those of us in the adoption industry are often touched by adoption in some way that's kind of led us and brought us into this world. And we're so excited to learn from you, from your experience. We don't have to stick to strictly adoption. We can touch on any aspects of the adoption process, assisted reproductive technologies, and things of that nature. And for the audience to listen and follow along. RT is what we often call surrogacy. But let's start our conversation by talking about adoption, and learning more about just kind of the process in general, in your state, and then we'll kind of dive into what's allowed and what's not allowed as we go through that. I'd love to know, just from the start, how the adoption process starts. And what are some of those key fundamental rules that you need to know when you're just starting adoption in the state of Colorado?

Tim: So Colorado is a little unique. We are one of the minority of the states that we are considered an agency state, which means that for a birth parent or birth parents to place their child for adoption, they are legally required to work with and receive relinquishment counseling from a licensed child placement agency. So I use the terms adoption agencies and child placement agencies interchangeably. But in Colorado, these are mostly private nonprofits that are licensed through our State Department of Human Services. So I think that's probably the first thing to start with is that Colorado is an agency state. And obviously, I know we have 50 different states and there are 50 different processes for adoption. The fact that Colorado is an agency state is that we have a very significantly different process because of that. There are some situations where an agency is not required. When I say we're an agency state for adoptions, I'm generally speaking about private infant adoptions. I'm not talking about step-parent, or second parents, or kinship, or custodial adoptions. I'm referring primarily to infant adoptions, where birth parents intend to place their child for adoption at birth. 

Amanda: I think that's probably the first starting point. Do you have to use

an agency in the state of Colorado? Or can you use one of those national agencies if you're a resident of Colorado?

Tim: That's a great question. We have a lot of situations where maybe the initial match was made by an international agency or an agency out of state, which is permissible, but for a birth parent to relinquish his or her rights they have to work with a Colorado licensed agency. So for example, if a birth parent finds an agency that has a national presence, they would essentially have to hand that case off to a Colorado agency. So that's kind of the first starting point. And then what also makes Colorado unique is, the Colorado process requires a court filing. We have to file a court case to legally free a child for adoption. And I can talk in more detail about what that looks like. We have a process that doesn't necessarily require a court hearing. But that's the other thing that makes our process unique. In addition to being an agency state. We're also a state that, regardless of whether an agency is involved, regardless of if an attorney is involved, we do require a court filing where a judge would have to sign off to legally free a child for adoption.

Amanda: I think these nuances are so interesting between each state. That's why I often tell hopeful adoptive families that the very first thing you've got to do is talk to an adoption attorney and adoption agency in your state. Because you don't want to risk doing something inappropriately that could put an opportunity in jeopardy. So that is a really big nuance to think about. As you're thinking about starting the process in Colorado, then it's really got to start with finding your agency. And for any of those hopeful adoptive families out there, they're instantly thinking the price tag has to go up. I want them to also hear what you said at the beginning of the episode, which is there are nonprofit adoption agencies out there. I oftentimes find that they're a phenomenal resource. So I would also just caution the audience not to automatically say it's going to be so much more difficult to adopt in Colorado. It's not. You just need to find the right partner for you on that journey.

Tim: That's a great point, Amanda. Our office serves as general counsel for nine different agencies. That's part of the role we play is we'll provide legal counsel for agencies. There are a lot of agencies that don't use legal counsel. And I think the first step is to make sure that you find the agency that matches your personal profile. For example, we represent agencies that are religiously affiliated. And we also represent agencies that are nondenominational. They might specialize in the LGBTQ community. So depending on who the adoptive family is, and ultimately, what type of birth parents are hoping to attract, that's going to really flow from what agency they choose.

Amanda: That makes sense. I know, that even within the agency, sometimes the individual social worker that you're working with can have a large impact. I know, in my own adoptions, I had a social worker that was really a phenomenal resource, and then another social worker, that really wasn't quite an educational resource for me. And so those are the lessons that you learn as you go throughout the process for sure. So considering your agency is your first step in Colorado. When are you moving into the home study process? Are those agencies typically your resource for that, and then kind of guiding you through the matching process as well?

Tim: So our agencies in that regard, are somewhat of a one-stop shop. There are obviously as exceptions to this, particularly if it was a match made outside the agency. But oftentimes the agency that the family applies to will conduct the home study. From our licensing rules, the agency that's replacing a child with you is going to be the agency that conducts your home study, unless we have an interstate component to this. That agency also is often working with potential birth parents. Given that nonprofit role, a lot of our agencies are working with a lot of birth parents who are just struggling with the various options that are available to them. They're considering what to do with the pregnancy that was unexpected or they're not sure what to do. And so our agencies really provide a lot of those services ranging from the home study process to trying to attract birth mothers to the various options available to them, and then ultimately, the matching as well. 

Amanda: Gotcha. That makes sense. So you mentioned something, and I just want to make sure that the audience is clear because sometimes we can hear partial things. So you said that you could be matched through the agency you're working with, or you might be matched in other areas or other avenues. So talk to me about how self-matching would work or matching with a friend of the family, or something of that nature in the state of Colorado.

Tim: So there's no rule against a self-match or a match done by another agency in Colorado. We've had a lot of situations where there is a family that's interested in forming their family through adoption, for example, and the potential adoptive mother might be sitting, getting her hair done, and she's talking to her hairdresser and say, you know, my husband and I are struggling, or my partner and I are struggling with infertility. This is an actual situation where they might say, my daughter, or my cousin, or someone I know, is actually pregnant, and she's considering placing for adoption, Would you all like to meet? There's nothing in Colorado law that prohibits that informal type of connection. What is required, though, in Colorado is when that connection is made both the potential adoptive family as well as the birth parents need to partner up with an agency to make sure that the process is done in accordance with Colorado law, which includes a pretty regimented process for relinquishment counseling, as well our legal pleadings that we have to file with the court. So there's nothing that prohibits that type of self-matching.

Amanda: We're going to take it one step further because these are the questions I often get asked in my DMs every single day. If I meet someone on social media, because I've posted in a group, is that treated differently? Or if I meet someone via a Google ad, or a Facebook ad, or something of that nature. Is that treated any differently?

Tim: The short answer is yes. When I say self-matching is permitted, I mean that informal situation where you're not formally advertising. It's when people know that you're interested in adoption and it kind of happens, circumstance. Colorado prohibits a birth parent from soliciting their child for adoption. It also prohibits an adoptive family on their own from advertising their availability as an adoptive family. In Colorado, the only two entities that are allowed to advertise are a licensed child placement agency, also known as an adoption agency, or an adoption attorney, or an attorney that specializes in adoption. So self-matching kind of in an informal way, that's not prohibited. But I want to distinguish that from a family that puts out an app that would be illegal under Colorado law.

Amanda: And again, that's one of those things when people reach out to me, I'm like, you have to ask an attorney because it varies so greatly by state. I've heard in some states that just if you place it on your Facebook page, but you don't pay for an ad you're okay, and in other states like this, neither one is okay. So you just don't want to put an opportunity at risk, folks. So that's my plea to you. It's just you know, you don't want to get all the way to the court proceedings, and then find out that this is not something that you can do legally. That would just not be a good situation for anyone. So you had talked about their kind of mini cleaning. So we'll kind of go back to the process. You've picked your agency, you've gone through the appropriate steps to be an approved family with that agency, and now you have maybe been presented and matched. Can you talk us through the legal process from your perspective of what happens at that point?

Tim: Sure. Absolutely. And I'm going to talk about this in the most common situation. You know, in a perfect world, you have two birth parents who are placed for adoption. I think what's more common that we see is we have a birth mother that's placing and then we either have an unknown birth father or a birth father that's not involved. So I'm going to talk about this in kind of two different ways. In terms of the birth mother, we typically in a perfect world will have all the pleadings ready before birth. If mother gives birth, and by legal pleadings, we're required to have at least 12 legal pleadings ranging from an affidavit of relinquishment counseling, an interrogatory, where she's answering all sorts of questions in terms of her understanding of the process, etc. She's also doing affidavits regarding any Native American ancestry. She's also doing affidavits in terms of who she believes is the possible father, in addition to whether she has ever been married. So Colorado is very, really strict on two big areas. Native American ancestry is a big issue we address as part of our pleadings. We’re also required to make pretty diligent efforts to both identify and locate all potential birth fathers. So even prior to the pleadings, with the agency, and then when we're involved as well, on behalf of the agency. We're working with the birth mother and all those issues, ideally, before we even get to delivery. And you know, our best practice in Colorado is if we're involved representing the agency doing all this legal work, when we have all these legal documents ready for the birth mother, our best practice in Colorado is we get an independent attorney involved. That attorney is involved just briefly for the short purpose of reviewing these documents with the relinquishing birth parent, to make sure that she and or he understand everything that they're signing and understand the rights they're giving up. The birth mother is not allowed to sign any of those documents in Colorado before she gives birth. We can prepare them, she can review them. But the Colorado process is that we are allowed to essentially file the relinquishment case on the fifth business day after birth. And then if we're dealing with an infant we're allowed to file what we call the expedited relinquishment, where if we have all our T's crossed and our I’s dotted when we filed that on the fifth business day after birth, the judge ideally will review everything we filed and enter an order within seven days of us filing it without a court hearing. And so even though we have this lengthy, involved process, we do have the pathway to have the child legally freed for adoption, really anywhere from five to 12 days after birth. But this is where potentially it gets complicated. So let me talk briefly unless you have questions about this. 

Amanda: Yeah, I'll ask one question there. So you said five to 12 days after birth, and I would assume at the end of the five or the 12th, or the day in between is when you would be kind of clear to begin the ICPC process if you were leaving the state. Is that correct? 

Tim: No, actually, we generally can start the ICPC process the minute the birth mother signs the documents. The minute the birth mother or birth parents sign the relinquishment paperwork, we can initiate the ICPC process. Colorado doesn't require the case to be filed to initiate ICPC. Nor does it require a court order. We have to do legal risk statements that the adoptive family understands that this child is not yet legally free for adoption, but we generally will initiate ICPC as soon as the mother's medically cleared to sign the documents.

Amanda: Okay, yes, please do continue.

Tim: So in terms of birth fathers, with this expedited process that involves children who are one year age of younger, were allowed to give pre-birth notice to alleged fathers up to 63 days before birth. So if we're working with a birth mother and she says, I think this guy met at a party is. I know his name, but I haven't seen him since. Or she says it's either him or my ex-boyfriend, neither who wants to be involved. We're required to identify all potential birth fathers. We have really difficult conversations oftentimes with birth mothers about who they might believe would be a birth father. And then we have to make efforts ideally before birth to locate and serve them, and we serve them with typically a letter from our office outlining the process. We give them notice that they've been identified as a potential father and that they have either 21 days to properly respond or the date upon which we filed the case, whichever is longer. So again, if we serve Him 60 days before the baby's born, he's going to essentially have at least 65 days to file a response right now, and for the alleged father to respond, he has to do two things. He has to file and return to us a reply form indicating that he wants to contest his potential rights being terminated. And he has to file and initiate a paternity action. If he fails to do both of those things, he has not properly responded, and his rights will be terminated. So what is paternity action? That is where there would be a separate legal filing where he is affirmed affirmatively, saying I believe I'm the father of this child. And I want to be identified as the father of this child. This is part of the expedited process. If we're dealing with an alleged father, if we're dealing with what we call a presumed father. And it would be a presumption typically based on say Mother is married to somebody, even if she doesn't think he is the biological father if the mother is married, or if she's in a relationship with someone who is going to acknowledge paternity on the birth certificate, for example, we have to do a different process. But when we have these alleged fathers, we're allowed to give pre-birth notice up to 63 days in advance. 

Amanda: So what is the process if you have a presumed Father?

Tim: In a perfect world, if we have a presumed father, he will be on board with the birth mother. A lot of times we have situations where a birth mother has a spouse from whom she's been separated for a long amount of time, and is no longer in a relationship with. And so we often will have to find them. So that process then becomes different. We can only serve them after birth. And that's when we have to file the case, get a case number, and then we have to serve them like the relinquishment pleadings. We give them notice that they are the father of the child for whom they are a presumed parent, the birth mother is proposing to relinquish, and then they have 35 days to respond to that. And then we have a process in Colorado where if they respond, we could potentially terminate their parental rights under a bunch of different criteria such as unfitness, such as their failure to establish a positive relationship with the child, their failure to provide proper support, etc. But oftentimes in situations where we have a presumed parent that's not the biological parents, but we do our best to try to reach out to them and the agency works with us to do that to try to get them on board saying, we understand that you have presumed parents, you may not be the biological parent, but let's have a conversation about live birth mother making this plan. And so obviously, I'm talking about the legal process, potentially a little black and white. But that's part of our role at the agency is we make an effort, if we have a birth parent that wants to be involved in this process, to bring them into the fold, and this conversation. 

Amanda: And adoption, as you and I both know, it's never black or white. But we always want it to be quite honest, because it makes it very easy to understand what you're supposed to do next. So that you can follow along in the process and keep everything legal. And I think even our short conversation here is a great demonstration to our audience, the importance of finding an agency that you feel comfortable in that is competent to handle not only you and your emotions and your questions as you go through the process but also has partners that they work with, that are their legal counterparts, because they're such nuance to every part of the adoption journey. Making sure that you have the right partner in every aspect of this is important. I know in our case, we worked with one of those national agencies. And that changed who we worked with from a legal perspective. And we got really lucky on one adoption, that it was somebody that we knew and we trusted and we felt comfortable with. On the other adoption, it was very difficult to get someone to return my phone call and I didn't know what to do. And, so that's why it's really important that you find the right partner and that you feel confident in the partners that they're going to use as well. Like you said you serve as general counsel for many agencies. In a nonprofit agency world that is common. And so if you're wondering why an agency would use an outside counsel, that's the reason is because they can engage Tim and his firm when they need his services rather than paying the overhead every day of having direct employees. So it's a budget-friendly model for an agency to deploy so that they can bring in the services that they need to help support you and your journey. One of the other questions that we often hear about in other states would be a putative father registry. Is that something that applies in your state? 

Tim: No, I wish it did. We do not have a putative father registry in Colorado.

Amanda: Wow. Okay. So say that things have gone swimmingly she has signed and you have a presumed father who has given his blessing as well. What happens once she signs in the hospital from there until the adoption is legal and final?

Tim: The process has two parts. it's the legally freeing the child for adoption part. And then it's the actual adoption case where the family files their petition for adoption, and they get to celebrate their adoption finalization. So in terms of the process involving the birth parents, the birth parents' rights remain intact up until the point the judge signs the order, either relinquishing or terminating their parental rights. This again is where Colorado differs from other states. The mere signing of a document by a birth parent doesn't legally free the child from adoption. And so when we talk about the legal risk period, it extends up until the minute the judge signs that order. That's a big difference from other states. And so, when we talk about the extent to which the Colorado process is pretty involved, I think that's one of the main reasons that it's so important in Colorado to do it well and understand the process, is because it is so different. But again, a birth mother could physically place the child for adoption, she can sign all these documents, we can tell the adoptive family, we're signing this case, or we're filing this case, but if that birth mother or father changes their mind before the judge signs the orders, that's legally permissible. But again, with our expedited process, when we have a newborn, if everything is done correctly, and we have time to locate and serve folks, we're generally getting orders within five to 12 days after birth. So that's the first kind of piece I think about once the child is legally free for adoption. You know, if the adoptions are being finalized in Colorado, Colorado requires that the adoption be finalized no later or no sooner than six months after placement. And so typically there's that six-month time period where the licensing agency will have legal custody of the child. They'll typically do at least three post-placement visits with the adoptive family, and they'll provide their consent. And then after six months, the family can have their finalization. And so in Colorado, we typically file the adoption case within 35 days of the child being placed, where the judge then looks at the home study and approves the family for placement. But then we wait another five months when we can have that celebratory hearing to finalize the adoption.

Amanda: So talk to me about the legal responsibility the agency has for the child. So the physical custody is with the potential adoptive family, and they're caring for this child and making medical decisions. Can you talk us through kind of that aspect of those five months?

Tim: Yeah, sure. Under Colorado law when a parent relinquishes their rights, you know, the court can give legal custody to different entities, a relative, an adopted family that's been approved, but has already had the child for six months. For infant adoptions, 99% of the time legal custody is to that licensed child placement agency, and so they are legally responsible for checking in on a child, and they are legally responsible for reporting to the court in the state that this child is doing well. So the family has all the practical day-to-day responsibilities for the child, they're obligated to financially care for the child to meet the child's daily needs, to meet the child's medical needs. But it's the agency's legal responsibility to ensure that this child is safe and that the adoptive family is meeting the child's needs. And to report to the court if there are any issues. 

Amanda: So during that timeframe, I'm assuming you have some sort of paperwork to give you permission to take the child to the doctor or make other medical decisions. I know, it was an issue for us, during kind of the few days that, you know, we had my son before things were legal here in the state of Arkansas, that a random pediatrician wanted to see that we were legally the parents because we mentioned that, you know, we were in the process of adopting him before he would give us any information about the child we were holding. 

Tim: We haven't had many issues like that, oftentimes, I mean, you know, families can generally add a child to their insurance, you know, when it's an adoptive placement immediately upon placement, even before the child is finalized. And then oftentimes, just because I think the agencies with whom we work are well respected, oftentimes a letter from the agency or a letter from the agency's attorney, typically suffices any concerns that any medical provider would have. Because you're right, like in the Colorado process, the adoptive family doesn't have legal custody of the child. They have physical custody of the child.  But that's generally something that a letter from the agency or the agency's attorney, or even the adoptive family attorney can typically address if there are any issues. If needed, we can always get an order or some documentation from the court, if it ever becomes an issue.

Amanda: Yeah, that's good. I have people in the community that will reach out and they're like, I'm headed to the doctor for the first time, what should I do? My answer is to have all of your paperwork with you. You don't have to take it in, but be willing to go to the car to get it if you need it. So you have been an adoption attorney in the state of Colorado for a while, you've finalized many adoptions and worked alongside many adoption agencies. I'd love just any advice or stories that you have to share with the audience. I think, we often learn best by hearing from others' experiences. 

Tim: Yeah. I'll start with what I think of as maybe a horror story first. Maybe horror is not the right word, but a lesson to learn. So, you know, when we talk about what's allowed in Colorado, and we're dealing with interstate cases, Colorado does not allow choice of law. And what I mean by that is, if a birth mother from Colorado, wants to place a child out of state, oftentimes that birth parent may speak to an agency or an attorney in a different state. And they'll propose, hey, Colorado, birth mom, why don't you wave Colorado law and agree to, for example, Florida law that is impermissible? Our Colorado ICPC will not permit that. If we have a Colorado birth parent, they have to go through the Colorado process. So we had a situation a couple of years ago, where this family from a different state had spoken to an attorney in a different state. And that family knew this birth mother, they flew out to Colorado with out-of-state documents and out-of-state process. They just met with the birth mother and signed all these things. They were thinking they would just leave the state with this baby. And as you can imagine, things fell apart pretty quickly. We got involved and an agency got involved and we were ultimately able to fix this and do it correctly. But this poor family was led to believe by an out-of-state entity or an attorney, that they could just come here, have birth mom sign documents, and leave. They ended up staying here for almost three months. While we unraveled the mess that people put them in. So I think the lesson from that is recognizing every state has different requirements and different laws. And one of the big things Colorado does not permit is choice of law. Like just because some other state allows a much more simplified process where it literally could be a signature on a piece of paper, and the baby's free for adoption. That's not allowed for a Colorado child and a Colorado birth parent. So that's kind of my horror story. 

Amanda: And putting myself in the position of someone who's new to the adoption process and thinking, How would I know that? My advice to you would be not only to have an adoption attorney in the state in which you live who is a quality attorney, and that you have done some due diligence and reviews and maybe spoken to other hopeful or other adoptive families that have worked with them, but then if you match with someone in another state, to do the due diligence in that state with an adoption attorney in that state as well. And I know that when I share that, you know, counsel with folks, they often say, Gosh, it's just adding more process and more money to the situation. And what I often coach on the kind of the reverse side of that is, but imagine you're sitting there holding this child, and you're being told because you didn't follow some paperwork, processes, that this child cannot be your child, you can't adopt him. So wouldn't you rather protect yourself on the front end, by maybe taking that extra step making that extra phone call? Just to avoid that situation? 

Tim: You know, that's a great point, Amanda. To give an example, when I talked about that we hired an independent attorney to review documents with the birth parent, you know, the only basis upon which a birth parent can revoke everything they sign is alleging that they were under duress, or some, some have committed fraud to them. And so to give an idea, we pay this attorney, maybe I forget what the current rate, maybe $300 or $400, to spend an hour or two, with a birth parent and go over these 20 documents. What we tell adoptive families is, that's the cheapest insurance policy and can provide peace of mind. And, just from an ethical standpoint, even though it's not required under Colorado law, we want birth parents to understand what they're signing, and what rights they're giving up. And there's nothing ever more heartbreaking than having a birth parent afterward, say someone that wasn't representative made me do this, or I didn't understand what I was signing. But the fact that we have an independent attorney for in the context of things, a minimal amount of money, ensuring that this birth parent not only understands what he or she is signing but also provides that protection, that he or she can't come back and say they made me do this. 

Amanda: Yeah, that just gives me the chills thinking about that, that someone who would be in a situation like that, potentially, and how avoidable that could be to your point by having an objective third party sit down with someone and walk through that. That is amazing. Any other words of wisdom or parting thoughts that you would want to leave with the audience as they're thinking about pursuing adoption?

Tim: You know, I do, and maybe I can tell a story in that regard. Okay. So, you know, Colorado has changed. We have two new bits of legislation that impact the adoption process. I think of them as tools in our arsenal for better outcomes. You know, one of which is as of two years ago, Colorado now allows enforceable post-adoption contract agreements, and we call them packets. I think of it as someone who does a lot of litigation, and both the child welfare and adoption world when it's necessary. You know, the availability of these oftentimes is a tool we can use. The packets can be done in a million different ways. It's been really beautiful to see how it allows people to come to the table and think of better resolutions rather than litigation. The second thing that we see a lot of involving children who've been drug-exposed at birth and potentially have special needs, because of their developmental delays because of that, you know, we do a lot of work in the private adoption world, with families who in Colorado are eligible for adoption subsidies, because of potential drug exposure. So I think some of our success stories have been families that take the time to educate themselves on what's available to them and to their children when they're adopting a child that may have special needs. And what makes the nonprofit agencies with whom we work, I think special is it opens up a pathway for Title 40 eligibility for a whole variety of support and services for children that otherwise an adoptive family might be a little hesitant moving forward with the placement.

Amanda: I think that is beautiful. I went to the adoption art conference earlier this year. And I was able to meet with an agency that really kind of opened my eyes to the whole world of adoption subsidies, and helping hopeful adoptive families see that caring for medically fragile children is an option and that there are resources to help you. Because I have people ask questions and might really feel called to do this and to help, but financially to stay home with this child to care for them and to provide the care that they need, they’d need to make some other income. And so I think finding that if that is something you feel called to and that you feel equipped to parent medically fragile children, understanding that option is important.

Tim: I think that's where there's no substitute for an adoptive family educating themselves on what's out there. In Colorado, yes, we're an agency state, but that also really goes to the role that I and my colleagues as adoption attorneys play is just letting people know the different resources and pathways available to them. I spoke with a family the other day, and they just, didn't think that in private adoption, there was any support or benefits available. And that's not accurate. Even in the private adoption setting, if a family is exploring adopting a child with special needs, in which drug exposure in utero can be included as one, there are oftentimes adoption subsidies available for families.

Amanda: Yeah, you touched on a really important subject, which is education. As you know, when you're considering adoption, understanding all of the risk and the trauma and all of the things and then you know, to that you need to be aware of, and then as you become a parent, oh my word, the education of very much living that and eight and five, we're realizing, okay, we're definitely past the toddler years, but I need to understand this, like, before we get to the tween years because it's a whole different set of educational requirements.

Tim: I have two teenagers, so I'm learning every day.

Amanda: Yeah, I'm a little afraid of those days. I'm reading all the books. So like, what can I do to try to prepare ahead of time for those days? But yeah, that is a great thing to share with the audience. Thank you. It's great. Any other words of wisdom or pieces of advice that you would share with the audience? 

Tim: I think in the adoption world I'm biased. But I would say not all attorneys are created equal, much like not all agencies are created equal. I can't think of any more important process for families and children to be done well, than the adoption process. And I spend a lot of time counseling families not only about how the process can work, but the way it should work. On the idea of doing this well, the idea of not cutting corners, because I think the risks to children, the risk to families, the risk to birth parents are just so substantial that I think it's critical. 

Amanda: And I'm so thankful that you provide this educational tool to families because there is no substitute for striving to do this process well. 

Tim: And surround yourself with attorneys and agencies that are not only committed to doing this well but have a demonstrated embedded history of doing it well. And so I think that's probably and again, I think of the poor family that came out here and waited for three months because they were given poor advice. I would never advise about what even if I think I know what the process is in another state. In Colorado, I would never think about saying this is how it goes in Florida or this is how Texas operates. I would say, I don't know, let's get on the phone with an attorney from that state that has been vetted and verified and that we trust is going to give competent advice.

Amanda: Absolutely. And ironically, the stakes of it not going well is what started this mission for me, right? Sitting in a hospital room, someone asked me if I was aware of the rules and the laws around Native American adoptions, I wasn't, but I was holding a child who was Native American that I intended to be my child. And that's what started this for me, to bring experts because I'm not an expert. I'm an expert as a storyteller. I'm a marketing expert. And that is where you know, my passion lies. But that is one small, small sliver in the overall adoption process, which is why we all need to have our functional experts like adoption attorneys, agencies, social workers, counseling, all of those resources there to make the full picture in the full circle of adoption come about. So thank you for being willing to do this interview to educate our audience and help give them a resource to turn to in Colorado. So can you share with our audience, how they can get in touch with you if they have questions and how to start the adoption process?

Tim: Sure. Again, our firm is Grob & Eirich, LLC. You can go to our website, ​​http://www.grobeirich.com/. If you go to our website, our phone number and email address are all on there. You can also find me on the Academy of Adoption and Assisted Reproduction Attorneys website. There's only a handful of us in Colorado, two of whom are with my firm. And I believe we're the two most active in adoption in our state. So there's a variety of ways to find us. And we pride ourselves on being pretty responsive. So if anybody reaches out, we'd be happy to speak with you and answer any questions.

Amanda: You guys were incredibly responsive to our requests for this interview. So we appreciate that. We will make sure and put your website in our show notes. So wherever you're listening or watching, you can go back to your favorite podcast player or scroll down if you're watching on YouTube, and you’ll be able to find the link right there. But again, I cannot stress enough to our audience to reach out to an adoption attorney if you have questions in that state. Don't feel like you have to go it alone. They are here to be your resource and to help guide you through the process. So thank you again, Tim, for your time today. We appreciate you joining us.

Tim: Thank you, Amanda, thank you for having me.

Amanda: Wow! Wasn’t that a great conversation? I love the specific examples and stories that he gave us. So let's recap what we learned together. Okay. So first, not all adoption attorneys and agencies are created equal. There are some bad actors out there. And how you can protect yourself by looking for those that have industry ratings and industry reviews. Also, talk to other adoptive families that have worked with those individuals so that you can ensure that they are reputable. Second, you do not want to do anything that's going to put your adoption opportunity in jeopardy. Just as Tim said, in his practice, they will use another third-party attorney to go through all of the paperwork with expectant parents so that they know that they weren't coerced, or they didn't feel that they had to sign this paperwork, because it's a risk that's just simply not worth it. And then can we all remember and say a silent prayer for those folks that went through that horror story of believing that they had a great adoption attorney, that they were following all the process, but then having to stay in the state for three months, likely just sick and worried. I am so thankful to Tim and I hope that if you're looking for an adoption attorney in the state of Colorado, you'll scroll down to the show notes and check them out. And if you're looking for other stories of inspiration along your adoption journey, then check out this story for Mark and Sarah and how they brought home their son in just five months.